Episode 24 | Homophobia, Bisexuality, How Society Teaches Gay Hate, Homosexuality In The Ancient World
A discussion of homophobia, social issues and myths surrounding homosexuality and bisexuality, in preparation for some fun topics like swinging, group sex and poly.
Show Links:
Direct Download: Sexual-Dark-Age-024-HomophoBiSexuality.mp3
Hi J.V.,
Enjoyed this week’s episode. I’ve noticed that in my social groups that those who are gay/bi or at least bicurious outnumber those who identify as straight. Its kept pretty quiet for the most part because parents/employers/etc. are very negative towards homosexuality. My own parents are great and didn’t even bat an eye when Kitty came out as bisexual so I guess I’m lucky that I never had any of that negativity taught to me about homosexuality. On the downside I don’t really know what, if anything, I should be doing/saying to my friends when they are scared about people finding out about them not being straight. And knowing how some of their family members have been disowned for being gay I think they have valid fears of coming out.
I can also understand why some people would be scared to come out to their partners as bi-curious. I have a friend that told her ex-boyfriend that she was bi and after that having a threesome was all he seemed to care about. The broke up before she acted on her curiousity and she’s very wary of letting any potential boyfriends know she’s curious. So some advice to the guys who want a threesome from a guy who has them frequently: If you are patient and supportive instead of pushy and let your bi-curious girlfriend go at her own pace you’ll have a much better chance of having a threesome.
I totally agree with you Liam; my gf is bi curiouos. I have been with her for nine years now, and after two yaers with her I found out she was curious. I went to far WAYYY TOO FAST, from going to strip clubs with her to pressuring her to kiss and grope women. She told me she wish I never knew. More recently she has been showing more interest in women again and NOW I KNOW BETTER. She likes girl on girl porn and even allows me to eat the box while she watches it. Of course I’d love a threesome, but I’m not gonna force or push anything.
The fact that your relationship survived that, and that you’re slowly moving forward on the issue again, is a sign of a really strong bond. It’s a really common, really natural mistake to make and you’re definitely not alone. Being supportive but “just along for the ride” without pushing is the way to get there eventually.
Honestly J.V., your show is definantly helping us both be more open about sex. It’s showing both of us that being a sexuall person is more then ok, it rocks.
I’m going to talk more about bi-curiosity on the Group Sex Basics episode, or maybe a separate show on threesomes depending on how long that one ends up running. It’s a tragically common set of circumstances…someone expresses bi-curiosity, and their playmate stops thinking or talking about anything else. In pretty short order it makes the curious person feel unappreciated and like they’re not “enough” for their playmate. Relationship death usually follows at one pace or another.
Unfortunately coming out of the closet in the Sexual Dark Age is no simple thing. Regardless of how many people would be fine with it, there are always consequences and it takes a lot of courage to face them. In the end being true to yourself is what’s best for you, but it can be a real mess at the same time.
Firstly thank you J.v for making the point that just because a bisexual is in a relationship doesn’t mean they “chose a side” it means a lot. I get accused all the time that I’m no longer bi because I have a bf and it pisses me off to no end.
2ndly Shara it was so good to hear from someone other than my age talk about their bisexuality. I’m bisexual and I don’t know any older bisexuals (male or female) to talk/ask/listen to about navagating that landscape. Your story made me feel okay about the place I’m at in my experence with women. Thank you many times over
I’m glad this episode struck a chord for you. In a society that only endorses monogamy, bisexuals get the short end of the stick in a lot of ways and that’s one big thing I’d love to see change.
Great episode, and you definitely hit the nail with the sledgehammer when it comes to “gay hate,” as you best described it. I also liked your “don’t give a shit” philosophy. I try to follow the same thing, though I may have to yoink your wording the next time someone asks me about stuff like this.
I do identify as a bisexual male (no experience with guys, but I figure if guys can like girls before they’ve been with one and call themselves straight, I can do the same thing), and one aspect about the bi-phobia (and I think there is legit fear in that area) that you didn’t mention is that, for me, I’ve gotten more shit from gay guys about my orientation than straight. They hear me say that and they think I’m just gay and still in denial. Even the people who get out of the closet to step out of the Sexual Dark Age are still affected by it, I suppose.
There are a lot of factors in play with your gay friends. I want to touch on this in this weekend’s Listener Mail so I won’t type too much here, but facing up to a societally unsupported sexual orientation is only a step in getting out from under the Dark Age. We still live in a world that doesn’t even acknowledge bisexuality, so gays are just as likely as breeders to fall victim to the “pick a lane” mentality.
You were doing so well until about the 20 minute mark. You were making an awesome case for tolerance and being able to explore sexuality. Bi-sexuality, you said, was just another way to make yourself & someone else feel good. You said bi-sexuality is something to not be ashamed to try, or even be. Then you dropped the ball (figuratively). You had to gay bash. I had to listen twice to make sure that I heard what I thought that I heard. So it is ok to be bi-sexual…as long as you are not a man? You stated that it is “gay” if you want to have sex with someone with the same equipment when they drop their pants. You also said that it is “gay” if a dude has a dildo in his butt…if the dildo holder is a man. So which do you believe? Is it ok to be bi-sexual if you are a man? Or is it gay?
I really do hope that you were being sarcastic.
“gay” is when you are repulsed by the opposite sex. It is the complete inverse of straight. Everything else is sexual fluidity, and is NOT gay. I have never had sexual contact (skin contact with a man for my, or his, pleasure), but it would not be “gay” if I did…because I am not “gay.”
Keep up the good work. I enjoy your podcasts.
I really wasn’t being sarcastic, more like satirical and precise with my choice of words. I was talking about some straight guys being afraid of ass play because it’s stigmatized as either inherently gay somehow or could ‘make them gay.’ No particular sex act is gay or straight, they’re all neutral, and any given person’s sexual orientation is reflected in who they want and/or choose to play with. Sex play between two people of the same gender is a homosexual act, whether it’s performed by someone who identifies as gay, bi or bi-curious.
Sexual orientation is a spectrum, with breeders on one end, gays on the other and everyone else in the middle. Bisexuals have both heterosexual and homosexual desires. Another perfectly accurate way to say that is that bisexuals are a little straight and a little gay. Getting into man-on-man or girl-on-girl dildo play is definitely enough towards the gay end of the spectrum that it isn’t full on straight anymore, making it at least a little gay. My exact quote there was “unless there’s a guy working the dildo…that’s kinda gay.” I stand by that as a reasonable and uncontroversial statement. “Kinda gay” is the same thing as “at least bisexual.”
As far as what’s ‘OK’ I’ve always said that all sex play between consenting adults is perfectly natural, and I don’t believe I’ve contradicted that philosophy here. I’m sorry you took that statement the way you did, but what you heard isn’t what I was saying and I hope I’ve cleared that up.
I’ve listened to each of your podcasts, and I did not think that you would intend anything sex-negative. That is why I was surprised to hear the remarks about something being “gay.” Your reply clearly explains your intent, and I understand the point you make now.
Thank you for your reply to help me understand.
No problem Michael, I’m glad you posted instead of wondering 🙂
At the beginning of the podcast J.V. stated that he would refer to all of LGBT as “gay” since LGBT doesn’t roll of the tongue very well so I took the statements around the 20 minute mark to encompass all of LGBT instead of strictly homosexual. That’s just my take on it though.
Hi J.V
I enjoyed your podcast this week. I think it is important for people to just hear / listen about the different orientations and phobias. I agree that some people get mad when you say your bi-sexual and when you do date one of the sexes they think that you are no longer bi.
I have known I was bi-sexual since I was very young. I never told anyone. I didn’t even understand most of what I was feeling and didn’t accept it. I had grown up in a Catholic home with parents that were advert to anyone being “different” sexually. So instead of embracing it, I hid it and just was “straight” even though I looked at women.
I identify as bi-sexual now. When I first decided to tell my sisters it was one of the most scariest things in my life. I love them and was afraid for them to hate me. They didn’t though. They accepted the fact that that is who I am. I have 3 sisters and one of them even thought that being bi-sexual was having sex with 2 guys. I couldn’t stop laughing. I know that she just didn’t understand but it was still so funny. This same sister doesn’t always understand even to this day about me being bi-sexual or bieng in a poly relationship but she still loves me.
After telling my sisters I told my friends. Now that was interesting. I lost a few of them as friends. They started to act strange around me, stop calling, stop hanging out with me and just made up excused why they seemed to avoid me. It isn’t like I was goign to jump their bones if I thought they were sexy, I just wanted them to know who I was. So after coming out ot them I definitily found out who my real friends were. One of my friends even had to hear it from my boyfriend that I was bi-sexual and wanted women. She wouldn’t bleieve me unless he told her too. I wasn’t insulted she just needed to hear it from us both and to know he was okay with that.
My parents don’t know I’m bi-sexual. I don’t know if I will ever tell them. They come from a very old and traditional European background. I think they would disown me. I feel this way because when I was younger one of my 3 sisters said that another sister could be lesbian. My mom freaked on the sister that said that. She didn’t want to think that and refused to believe it. She also thinks it is okay for someone to be gay but they can’t hold hands in the mall or kiss or anything like that in public. So this has made me not feel comfortable to tell them anything. Instead I told my boyfriends parents because I wanted them to know; espeically if they see me with a girl. I have to say it was scary to tell them. My boyfriend told me they would be cool with it but I was still scared. They were completely accepting of me. It felt great to be around parental type people who didn’t mind that I was bi. My boyfriend has some very wonderful accepting, positive parents and I am happy to not have to hide anything from them.
My ex and I dated for a long time and I was tempted to tell him about it but then I just couldn’t. It didn’t feel right to tell him because of some of the comments he had made here and there. I was afraid of him only wanting threesomes and not wanting me anymore for me. I didn’t want to be some toy to be used for his fantasies. I wanted him to support and understand me but I just had this feeling that he wouldn’t.
Now with my current boyfriend I did tell him I was bi. He actually helped me accept the fact that I was bi-sexual. He didn’t push me, instead he supported me gently. Whenever I fell or wanted to hide he wouldn’t let me. He made me feel like I mattered and that if I wanted to try sometihng it was okay. He knew it was hard for me to do anything or say anything to him. He made me understand and realize that I am not some horrible person for loving both sexes and to break the social stigma about being bi was bad.
He always told me to take things at my own pace because there is no timeline. Even if he wanted to jump into a threesome right away he wasn’t going to make me do something I didn’t want to do because he knew that if he did that then his chances of having that disappeared. He even suggested I have my first time with a girl without him around if that is what I wanted / needed to do. With his help, words, hugs and support I took things at my own pace and now we both enjoy threesomes every weekend.
I have had friends come out of the closet, as they say, and it was scary for them. My best friend moved away and then told me that they were bi-sexual. They thought I wouldn’t like them anymore and be freaked out. I told them that I still loved them no matter who they wanted to be with, man or women. One of my friends told her boyfriend she was bi and all he could think / talk of was having threesomes. She only wanted his support because she was curious and was cared. He started suggesting taking someone home and when she would tell him no please stop it she didn’t really want that right now, he would act like it was okay but then tell her she can bring someone home anytime. They have since broken up, but she doesn’t want to tell any new guys that she is bi. She doesn’t want to go through that again.
Shara I think it is great to know that you have those sexual fantasies. I know I have had many sexual fantasies that can range from sex in space to just a lovely night with my girlfriend and boyfriend on the beach, minus the sand. For a long time when I was younger I never understood the dream fantasies much. As I got older I thought it was bad to have them and more recently in the last few years I know that it is okay to have them.
I think some people who are scared to come out have valid fears on why if they have had bad experiences or know of people who have had bad experiences.
I may be an oddball in my thinking but hey….my favorite partner and I were snuggling one night when she expressed she always wondered what it would be like to have another woman’s breast in her mouth to suck on. She and a girlfriend has skirted around the idea 30+ years ago but never went beyond the talking stage.
I had recently came out of the BDSM closet and had introduced her to some forms of play. When she mentioned her desires I called my Mistress and we came up with a plan. Mistress is bi and loved to play.
I told my partner who we were going to visit and we were going to play. Didn’t exactly explain all the details. She was nervous but game. She really had led a sheltered life and had never considered sex with more than one person.
When we arrived and after some short greetings Mistress, her collard sub and myself put the spiderweb net under the mattress then went out to my partner and suggested we could use a nap. we got naked fast and I wrapped my arms around her and pinned her to the bed. Mistress and sub cane in each taking an arm and cuffed her to the web. I took care of her legs and took up pussy likker position to watch the rest of the action. Mistress introduced her great soft globes into my partners mouth and rubbed and tweaked her right breast while sub was massaging the left. My partner latched onto that titty like a starving baby. With the quality and quantity of unfamiliar sensation she went ballistic with orgasms. I lost count.
And that was the first hour of the weekend. She found out what is was like to have a female get her off with a vibrator – WOW. She was not interested in fem fem oral or anal. she had her life long bi-curiosity answered and was happy with that. I suppose that makes her about a 2 on the 6 point Kinsey scale and a 8 on the crazy adventure scale given she was introduced to a tasty titty, group sex, and more advanced BDSM all in the same weekend. She was willing because she had a trusted partner and new I would not put her in a dangerous position. Tough she drank a magnum of wine by her tee-totaller self and was not affected. Did she like it? Well 5 minutes into the 2 hour drive home I noticed here rustling around but couldn’t look d/t traffic.
When I finally could check her out she had her pants down to her ankles a raincoat covering her lap and her 11 inch silicone dildo buried to the hilt. The car it had a wonderful aroma all the way back home.
Referring to GLBTQ people as gay, even with an explanation, is still perpetuating erasure. This is especially true as there is already a term that encompasses what you wanted to say: ‘queer’.
Also, I don’t think Alexander’s army is a good example of homosexuality in ancient times. What you talked about was anal rape, used to humiliate the enemy. Rape as a weapon of war has nothing to do with consensual homosexual sex. It is important to note that rape is usually motivated by anger or a desire for power and control over the other person. It has nothing to do with sexual attraction or sexual orientation. There have been cases of heterosexual men raping other men. It is not uncommon for the rapist to be having regular consensual sex. Rape is rarely for sexual gratification. Rather is it a violent crime in which sex is used as a weapon. Rape is still a major issue in the military. A 2003 survey of female veterans found that 30 percent said they were raped in the military. Rape is also really common in the general population, with approximately 1 in 7 women experiencing an attempted or completed rape. It shocked me to hear you make light of the “butt-fuckers”. Don’t minimise rape just because the example you are taking about happened a long time ago.